Toremifene(fareston) or Nolva(tamoxifen) for PCT?
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    Default Toremifene(fareston) or Nolva(tamoxifen) for PCT?

    Which do you prefer and why? I have always used nolva, but many friends say that they prefer torem over nolva. They feel better while on it, libido increases faster, testicles enlarge quicker, it's easier on your lipids, etc. What do you guys think?

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    i've never used torem before or really heard much about it, im in for any info people with first hand experience may have


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    same here...

    maybe bassgod272 can elaborate more on that.

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    Fareston
    Chemical Name: Toremifene Citrate
    Drug Class: Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator
    Fareston is a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM), not unlike its more popular cousins Nolvadex and Clomid. Just as we see with Nolvadex, Fareston is used to treat breast cancer in post-menopausal women. It does this by exerting estrogen antagonistic effects in certain tissue, most notably, breast tissue. This is actually the same mechanism of action found in Nolvadex. This is why Nolvadex is often recommended to bodybuilders who are trying to avoid gynocomastia (growth of breast tissue in males). SERMs, in addition, have several other well known effects in men, which are not simply limited to preventing the abnormal growth of breast tissue.

    At the hypothalamus and pituitary, estrogen acts in cooperation with the male bodyís negative feedback loop to send a signal to decrease the secretion of LH, and when LH secretion is lowered, so are natural testosterone levels. SERMs, like Fareston, possibly act as an estrogen antagonist in the hypothalamus and pituitary, in order to increase testosterone production. Thus, although it hasnít been studied to any great degree, itís highly likely that Fareston is capable of increasing testosterone in the same way that Nolvadex it, as itís androgenicity:estrogenicity ratio is 5x that of Nolvadex(1). It may also be better than Nolvadex for reasons that are of particular interest to steroid using athletes and bodybuilders.

    Fareston differs from Nolvadex in several ways, however- even though itís very similar to it in others. Firstly, the risk of certain side effects (although relatively rare with Nolvadex) is actually quite a bit lower with Fareston.However unlikely these risks are in the first place, the risk of stroke, pulmonary embolism, and cataract is probably lower with Fareston than with Nolvadex. This is going to be of interest to people who have issues with ďfloatersĒ in their vision, which is sometimes caused by Nolvadex and Clomid, as this product may represent significantly less occular toxicity. It also differs slightly from Nolvadex in its potent with regards to improving lipid (cholesterol) profiles. In terms of improving bone mineral density, Fareston is roughly equal to Nolvadex.(2)

    Although anecdotal evidence on this compound is rare, bodybuilders who have already experimented with this stuff seem satisfied. In my estimation, it would seem to be a more potent and safer alternative to Nolvadex, for those who are worried about side effects. Iím also predicting that it may provide a greater increase in LH and therefore testosterone levels, in men when compared to Nolvadex (when an appropriate dose of each is utilized). This makes its use a strong possibility for PCT in the future, when studies on its ability to elevate testosterone is more fully studied and understood.

    Fareston would also make a welcome addition to a cycle where Cholesterol issues may be a concern, or where something slightly stronger than Nolvadex may be required to prevent gyno.

    References:

    1. Breast Cancer Re Treat. 1990 Aug;16 Suppl:S3-7. Introduction to toremifene. Kangas L.

    2. Breast 2006 Apr;15(2):142-57. Epub 2005 Nov 9.Toremifene: An evaluation of its safety profile. Harvey HA, Kimura , MHajba A


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    ASCO: Fareston (Toremifene Citrate) as Effective as Tamoxifen in Breast Cancer

    NEW ORLEANS, LA -- May 23, 2000 -- Data presented at the 36th Annual American Society of Clinical Oncology meeting, demonstrate that the use of Shire Roberts' Fareston (toremifene citrate) as adjuvant treatment for breast cancer in post-menopausal women is at least as safe and effective as tamoxifen. The trial, conducted by The Finnish Breast Cancer Group, is the first clinical trial to compare the efficacy and safety of Fareston to tamoxifen in the adjuvant treatment setting for post-menopausal women with axillary node-positive breast cancer.

    "The results of this study are of significant importance because they show that Fareston is as effective as tamoxifen in the adjuvant treatment of breast cancer," said Dr. Kaija Holli, Professor, Department of Oncology at Tampere University Hospital and Lead Investigator for the Finnish Breast Cancer Group trial.

    One-thousand-four-hundred and eighty patients were randomized into one of two groups receiving Fareston (40 mg/day) or tamoxifen (20 mg/day: 2-10 mg doses/day) for three years. The average follow-up time for the 899 patients included in the interim analysis presented today was 3.4 years. According to data presented the subjective side effect profile was similar (no statistically significant difference) in both treatment groups (i.e.: sweating and hot flashes) as well as the mean time to breast cancer recurrence. However, the breast cancer recurrence rate and death from breast cancer was lower in the Fareston treatment group (23.1 percent and 5.3 percent, respectively) compared to the tamoxifen treatment group (26.1 percent and 9.6 percent).

    Fareston is an anti-estrogenic treatment for breast cancer that has been available in the U.S. since 1997. It is currently indicated for the treatment of metastatic breast cancer in post-menopausal women with estrogen receptor positive or unknown tumors.

    "This is very exciting news about Fareston because it suggests that this product may provide patients with an alternative treatment option with a good safety profile and potential cost benefits," said Dr. Michael J. Edwards, Associate Professor, Department of Surgery, Division of Surgical Oncology at the University of Louisville and Chairman of the North American Fareston versus Tamoxifen Adjuvant trial for Breast Cancer (NAFTA trial). "These results are promising and I look forward to continuing to work with my colleagues in the U.S. on the NAFTA trial, which should provide additional support of Fareston as a safe and effective adjuvant treatment for breast cancer in comparison to the current standard of care."

    The North American Fareston versus Tamoxifen Adjuvant trial for Breast Cancer (NAFTA trial) was initiated in 1998 to compare the clinical efficacy and safety profile of Fareston adjuvant treatment to tamoxifen adjuvant treatment. The NAFTA trial is designed to have 1,980 participants randomized to receive Fareston (60 mg/day) for five years or tamoxifen (20 mg/day) for five years, with a five-year follow-up. The NAFTA trial currently has 114 clinical investigation sites recruiting patient participation

    "We are very pleased with the results of this study that will reinforce what is known about the efficacy and safety of Fareston therapy," said Simon Tulloch, MD, Senior Vice President of Research and Development for Shire Pharmaceutical Development in the USA. "Shire is committed to ensuring that all patients who need and want to take Fareston have access to the medication."

    Shire Pharmaceuticals Group is an international specialty pharmaceutical company with a strategic focus on four therapeutic areas: central nervous system disorders, metabolic diseases, oncology, and gastroenterology. Shire has sales and marketing infrastructure supporting a broad portfolio of products in the United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Republic of Ireland, France, Germany, and Italy. Shire's global search and development expertise has already provided three marketed products, while the current pipeline of thirteen projects includes one product in registration and a significant number advanced beyond Phase II. In 1999, Shire merged with Roberts Pharmaceutical Corporation.


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    From what friends have said(none had blood work done pre or post cycle) they "feel" better on Fareston(toremifine citrate or "torem") during PCT, their testes increase in size much faster, and their libido increases faster as well. What I like about it, is it does not negatively affect cholesterol like Nolvadex does, nor igf levels. Side effects are also more rare with torem.

    I'm currently using it right now in day 3 of my PCT of a 5 week long prop/dbl cycle. 120mg for the first 4 days, then 90mg for the remainder of week 1, 90mg for week 2, then 60/60 for the last 2 weeks. Right now, all I can say is that I don't feel as bad as I usually do during PCT. My overall mood is higher than usual at this time in PCT, but my libido still sucks. It will get better though, it always does. Unfortunately I didn't have blood work done as I cannot afford the labs. It's not covered by my insurance. From what i've been reading in both clinical trials and from users during PCT, I don't see why this isn't more widely used in the bodybuilding community.


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    Fareston
    (Toremifene citrate)
    This is yet another SERM, which means it will display both estrogen antagonist/ agonist properties in the body. This puts it in the same category as Nolvadex and Clomid, the two most popular drugs in this category. This is, however very different, and you'll soon see why‚€¶

    Some scientists at a party were bored one day, so they hooked up some time-lapse video to breast cancer cell cultures treated with toremifene (the chemical in Fareston). Ok, the part about them being bored one day is made up, but they really did hook up time-lapse photography to breast cancer cell cultures treated with Fareston. Anyway, they observed this for 3 days, and it caused approximately 60% of the cells to exhibit morphologic characteristics typical of cells undergoing apoptosis or programmed death. The significance of this to you and me is that this is roughly the same thing that would happen to your gyno if you were taking Fareston. Anyway, the number of mitoses gradually decreased to zero over only a 3- to 4-day period. So this stuff causes growth inhibition of estrogen-sensitive breast cancer cells by inducing some cells to die and by inhibiting other cells from entering mitosis (i.e. from replicating) (1). This stuff will KILL your gyno, from everything I've read (which also means that I've had to read into everything I‚€™ve read, if you kinda follow me). Now where was I? Oh yeah‚€¶kill, that's right. This is certainly good news for someone who wants to get rid of gyno, but since it also prevents the cells from replicating, it will stop gyno from progressing as well as kill existing gyno.

    Also of note is that it will reduce prolactin (2), and as you probably guessed, this may raise your Testosterone levels, since prolactin can not only cause lactation, but it also has an inhibitory effect on your Test levels. The unfortunate part about this potentially exciting new compound is that it will also raise sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), which will in turn lower circulating levels of testosterone in your body (3).

    Perhaps this drug, if it can be found, may be used successfully to treat existing gyno, or as an adjunct during a cycle, but certainly not for an effective post cycle therapy.


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    Dr. Dana Hauser prefers it over nolvadex and clomid for PCT purposes. It DOES help you to recover faster. In the article you posted it said "if it can be found" well that is a dated study because I have been able to order it from my pharmacy for quite some time. I'm using it right now and feel better than I ever have during PCT.

    Nothing that I say constitutes proper medical advice. I am simply role playing.

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    Fareston
    (Toremifene Citrate)

    Fareston is a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM), not unlike its more popular cousins Nolvadex and Clomid. Just as we see with Nolvadex, Fareston is used to treat breast cancer in post-menopausal women. It does this by exerting estrogen antagonistic effects in certain tissue, most notably, breast tissue. This is actually the same mechanism of action found in Nolvadex. This is why Nolvadex is often recommended to bodybuilders who are trying to avoid gynocomastia (growth of breast tissue in males). SERMs, in addition, have several other well known effects in men, which are not simply limited to preventing the abnormal growth of breast tissue.

    At the hypothalamus and pituitary, estrogen acts in cooperation with the male bodyís negative feedback loop to send a signal to decrease the secretion of LH, and when LH secretion is lowered, so are natural testosterone levels. SERMs, like Fareston, possibly act as an estrogen antagonist in the hypothalamus and pituitary, in order to increase testosterone production. Thus, although it hasnít been studied to any great degree, itís highly likely that Fareston is capable of increasing testosterone in the same way that Nolvadex it, as itís androgenicity:estrogenicity ratio is 5x that of Nolvadex (1). It may also be better than Nolvadex for reasons that are of particular interest to steroid using athletes and bodybuilders.

    Although anecdotal evidence on this compound is rare, bodybuilders who have already experimented with this stuff seem satisfied. In my estimation, it would seem to be a more potent and safer alternative to Nolvadex, for those who are worried about side effects. Iím also predicting that it may provide a greater increase in LH and therefore testosterone levels, in men when compared to Nolvadex (when an appropriate dose of each is utilized). This makes its use a strong possibility for PCT in the future, when studies on its ability to elevate testosterone is more fully studied and understood.

    Fareston would also make a welcome addition to a cycle where Cholesterol issues may be a concern, or where something slightly stronger than Nolvadex may be required to prevent gyno.

    References:

    1. Breast Cancer Re Treat 1990 Aug;16 Suppl:S3-7. Introduction to toremifene. Kangas L.
    2. Breast 2006 Apr;15(2):142-57. Epub 2005 Nov 9 Toremifene: An evaluation of its safety profile.

    Nothing that I say constitutes proper medical advice. I am simply role playing.

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    Pharmaceutical Name: Toremifene Citrate
    Drug Class: Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator
    Active Life: 5-7 days



    Toremifene citrate is a non-steroidal triphenylethylene derivative that exhibits anti-estrogenic properties. It acts as an estrogen receptor antagonist and is quite comparable to tamoxifen citrate in both its actions and mechanisms by which they work. However it is the apparent improved safety of use that toremifene citrate offers that is the main benefit behind it for strength athletes, bodybuilders and other steroid users. Medically, toremifene citrate was developed and is still used to treat breast cancer and was first approved by the Food and Drug Administration for this use in the United States in 1995.

    Similar to the other more commonly used selective estrogen receptor modulators used by steroids users, namely clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen citrate, the toremifene citrate molecule binds to estrogen receptors. Thus this leads to the estrogen being blocked from interacting with the receptor and it can not have any influence thereby remaining inactive in that tissue. By doing so an "anti-estrogenic" effect is achieved.

    The difficulty in using toremifene citrate is the lack of research conducted using human subjects, and specifically male subjects. While it is possible to apply most of what is known about the other selective estrogen receptor modulators to toremifene citrate, independent research conducted with the drug itself is invaluable and therefore a risk is taken when using the drug because of the lack of information. Unfortunately toremifene citrate is possibly the least researched selective estrogen receptor modulator, with the possible exception of Raloxifene.

    Despite the lack of human-based research available, in terms of its use in steroid users, toremifene citrate can help in two ways. Firstly due to the binding affinity of the compound it is able to help in the prevention of gynocomastia. Toremifene citrate will compete with estrogen for the estrogen receptors in certain tissues, including the breast, and if it can bind to the receptor estrogen will not have an opportunity to interact with receptor and therefore gynocomastia should not be able to develop. When using anabolic steroids that can convert to estradiol (estrogen) this protection against gynocomastia can be invaluable. However it should be noted that toremifene citrate will not eliminate the estrogen or disallow the conversion to occur. Instead it attempts to counteract the effects of circulating estrogen in the body in those tissues that the drug effects. Therefore there is no evidence that toremifene citrate has any effects counteracting estrogenic side effects that are unrelated to the tissues not affected by the drug. Namely there is no real causal connection to any reduction in water retention and acne in users that begin taking toremifene citrate as it relates to estrogen.

    The second, and possibly more beneficial, aspect of toremifene citrate for steroid users is its ability to increase the production of luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone, and therefore increasing testosterone. This ability is why it is often used by steroid users during their post-cycle therapy. Toremifene citrate would accomplish this by blocking the negative feedback inhibition caused by estrogen at the hypothalamus and pituitary, and this in turn will help to increase the production of these hormones. Currently there is no available research that directly links toremifene citrate to being able to raise testosterone levels in male users, however due to the nearly identical mechanisms that both tamoxifen and toremifene citrate use and the reactions that they produce in the body, it would be easy to extrapolate that both drugs should have similar effects in this respect as well. Anecdotally users have reported good results with toremifene citrate and say that they are at least comparable that those of tamoxifen citrate.

    One area where it has seemingly been demonstrated that toremifene citrate outperforms tamoxifen citrate is in terms of its positive effects on the regulation of serum cholesterol (1, 2). It has been shown that toremifene citrate not only supports HDL synthesis, but also LDL reductions. This is due to the estrogenic action of the drug in the liver. While there is some evidence that tamoxifen citrate produces a somewhat similar response, this is significantly outweighed by the response produced by toremifene citrate. It appears that toremifene citrate would be a solid addition for cholesterol support during an anabolic steroid cycle, where the results produced by tamoxifen citrate in the available research are sometimes less then significant.


    Use/Dosing

    In terms of dosing, sixty milligrams of toremifene citrate has been shown to be similar in effect to that of approximately twenty milligrams of tamoxifen citrate in terms of estrogen receptor binding ability (3). From this it can be extrapolated that for treatment and/or prevention of gynocomastia sixty milligrams should be sufficient for treatment. The same could be said for use during post-cycle therapy when the user wants to raise his testosterone levels as quickly as possible. However, as stated earlier in this profile, no research is currently available that definitively states that there is a certain dosage of the drug that does indeed raise testosterone levels in users whose are suppressed.

    In terms of dosing frequency, the drug has a fairly long active life therefore one could administer the compound once every few days. However to maintain fairly stable levels of the drug circulating in their system most users would be best served to administer the drug at least every other day or ideally every day. This ensures that there are no extreme spikes in the level of the drug and no severe tapering off.


    Risks/Side Effects

    In terms of the safety of toremifene citrate, there is some evidence that suggests that it is actually safer and presents less possible serious side effects then tamoxifen citrate (4). For example the risk of stroke, pulmonary embolism, and cataract are all lower when using toremifene citrate when compared to that of tamoxifen citrate (5), although the incident of ocular toxicity is fairly rare with both drugs (6).

    There is no toxicity issues directly related to the use of toremifene citrate (2, 7). Any issues arising in this area were seemingly caused by the hormonal effects of the drug, rather then the properties of the drug itself. As well, most of these complications were connected to the disease, namely breast cancer, that the drug was being administered to treat. For the purposes of anabolic steroid users, toremifene citrate poses no potential toxicity issues.

    The only major concern is that there is no available research on the long term effects of administration of this drug. Of course this is due to the drug only having been approved for use since the mid-1990s. Outside of these concerns however, it appears that toremifene is a relatively safe compound for use by most anabolic steroid users.



    References

    1. Saarto T, Blomqvist C, Ehnholm C, Taskinen MR, Elomaa I. Antiatherogenic effects of adjuvant antiestrogens: a randomized trial comparing the effects of tamoxifen and toremifene on plasma lipid levels in postmenopausal women with node-positive breast cancer. J Clin Oncol. 1996 Feb;14(2):429-33.

    2. Kusama M, Miyauchi K, Aoyama H, Sano M, Kimura M, Mitsuyama S, Komaki K, Doihara H. Effects of toremifene (TOR) and tamoxifen (TAM) on serum lipids in postmenopausal patients with breast cancer. Breast Cancer Res Treat. 2004 Nov;88(1):1-8.

    3. Valavaara R, Pyrhonen S, Heikkinen M, Rissanen P, Blanco G, Tholix E, Nordman E, Taskinen P, Holsti L, Hajba A. Toremifene, a new antiestrogenic compound, for treatment of advanced breast cancer. Phase II study. Eur J Cancer Clin Oncol. 1988 Apr;24(4):785-90.

    4. Riggs BL, Hartman L. Selective estrogen-receptor modulators -- mechanism of action and application to clinical practice. N Engl J Med. 2003;348:618-629.

    5. Harvey HA, Kimura M, Hajba A. Toremifene: An evaluation of its safety profile. Breast. 2005 Nov 8

    6. Gianni L, Panzini I, Li S, Gelber RD, Collins J, Holmberg SB, Crivellari D, Castiglione-Gertsch M, Goldhirsch A, Coates AS, Ravaioli A; International Breast Cancer Study Group (IBCSG). Ocular toxicity during adjuvant chemoendocrine therapy for early breast cancer: results from International Breast Cancer Study Group trials. Cancer. 2006 Feb 1;106(3):505-13.

    7. Gong C, Song E, Jia W, Qin L, Guo J, Jia H, Hu X, Su F. A double-blind randomized controlled trial of toremifen therapy for mastalgia. Arch Surg. 2006 Jan;141(1):43-7.

    Nothing that I say constitutes proper medical advice. I am simply role playing.

  11. #11
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    Any ideas on during cycle doses

    "The best activities for your health are pumping and humping." ~Arnold~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sniper33 View Post
    Any ideas on during cycle doses
    20mg-40mg to keep gyno down


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